I’m out on the water fishing so I really can’t launch into a full on argument here.
I just need to state in the clearest terms possible that I am in no way a moral relativist.
I firmly believe objective morality is not only possible but essential.
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The line is drawn where individual rights, properly defined are trampled on in the name of the groups greater good.
Those that are afraid or in danger can and should stay home.
Those that aren’t ought to go about their lives if they so choose.
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First off, let me say I appreciate that we can have a discussion, as opposed to a screaming contest.
The reality of an infectious disease is your decision has an effect on my health.
A waitress may be terrified of working and infecting her elderly mother, but her boss says if she doesn’t show up for work she can kiss her livelihood goodbye, so feeding mom and the child and paying the rent would be a bit of a problem.
A nurse, doctor or EMT will be put in mortal danger because a gym owner refuses to close and a whole bunch of folks get infected because they want to work out.
Writ large in the reality of this situation, many people who would have recovered in Italy died, not because they were too sick, but because there was no capacity left in the health care system to care for them.
No matter what Right we are to discuss, my rights end where yours begin and vice versa.
So you have property rights, and I have the right to live safely. A society that puts property rights above the right to continue to live a healthy life has it’s priorities really ass backwards in my opinion.
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Thank you for the thought out response.
I pretty much disagree. Without property rights no other other rights are possible.
That said, we would need to define what rights are, what they are based on and why to have a great conversation here without everyone banging their heads on the wall cuz we all understand them differently some times. 
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You make a good point, but if you look for one definition you’ll find 1,000.
So I am just going to free associate and see where it leads.
Rights (and duties) are the foundational grants (and requirements) that a society makes to (and from) individuals. You can’t have one without the other.
Rights without duties is anarchy, duties without rights is tyranny, the smart (just) society finds the balance point. The maximum freedom for the individual is just on the edge of chaos.
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Yes, but as @johnlocke pointed out, you could have just stayed home, and avoided the consequences of his decision altogether.
300,000 is less than 1 per thousand; that’s about where I go to yellow alert.
The one thing nobody seems to be acknowledging here is that everything in this Universe is subject to the laws of supply and demand … including human life. If the world population grows to tens of billions, then the value of individual human lives begin approaching those of the mosquitoes who are trying to bite @johnlocke during his camping trip.
The economic reality in 2020 is such that I may NOT be able to stay home if I want to keep my job. Your average wage slave is going to be SOL whether there are mitigating factors or not.
Being coerced into a dangerous situation by economic factors isn’t liberty.
There is only so much sympathy you can expect from me for people who are guilty of one or more of the following:
- Didn’t pay attention at school when they had the chance
- Made babies that they really could not afford to raise
- Have been largely irresponsible making major financial decisions in their lives
- Rarely if ever show initiative, take ownership, or apply themselves completely to their job tasks
- Expend more effort avoiding work than they would have, had they just done their jobs correctly
You use the phrase “SOL,” and I admit that there are a few anecdotal cases here and there where people who are not guilty of any of the above get effed by the fickle finger of fate. However, for the most part, wage slavery in America is self-inflicted.
I can’t go any further with you in this discussion until you admit to that simple fact.
I have a hard time with the idea that everyone who is poor deserves it. I see it see it as a convenient rationalization.
Poverty is real and our system seems specifically designed to keep those born to poverty in poverty, and to let just enough people escape to maintain the “If you just work hard enough” mythos.
As for the specifics.
Now if we were a true meritocracy, where everyone starts form the same point and has the same chance to make it, we’d need the same schools, the same opportunities for advancement, and no one gets an inheritance. I’d be 100% on board for that.
So we had a third confirmed case in my department on Tuesday.
Tuesday night a 4th operator went home with a 102 fever. He is 23 and firmly in the camp of " I’m not wearing a mask because I’m 23 and it won’t kill me" He spent our week end off in Atlanta, not wearing a mask and mingling with some if the protest crowds there.
An operator I had a 8-10 min conversation with at the beginning of the shift.
As an overweight 50 year old with borderline diabetes, yeah you could say I’m concerned. I mean I probably won’t get sick. And I probably won’t die. But I guess if I do I will be comforted by the fact that peoples rights weren’t stepped on and that my company continued production uninterrupted.
Go America.
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I’m in between both, I do not see the lock down as good but I wear a mask and do not trust others have been safely living life. It sucks when you have a co-worker - I was Quarantined for a few days because a guy who walked into my office looked over my shoulder as I showed him how to do something - at most a minute, more likely 20 seconds when not using sex lasting clocks.
ThepAlmetToState, do you get quarantined? In the state of MA we do and we have Shitty numbers still.
Only if we show symptoms. Otherwise its business as usual.Luckily I live in a state with a pro business governor so when my company declared themselves essential the powers that be just said “ok”
I got a call from the nurse who told me I am required to stay home until a certain date.
NM.
I just let this thread do something I swore I’d never let happen again. I let something some one posted on the internet absolutely infuriate me. I don’t know why I delude myself into thinking it will ever change.
Break time.
I will be back at some point. Probably. Until then everyone stay safe.
Wagemonkey Thep signing off.
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I agree and me and mine have been living as much as we can in isolation conditions since the middle of March, and I have no plans to change that any time soon. We mask, and we go out as little as possible. We utilize curbside pickup for anything that we have to go to a store for (including groceries), when we can.
I am also in no rush to get any sports to return, though I know they will. I won’t be going to any games, as I don’t see this resolving any time soon, and think it will only get worse come fall.
Oh, and there is something else happening this fall that could have some unpredictability.
EDIT…this was written before Thep edited his reply. I understand where you are coming from. I hope you are back soon. We can re-categorize this thread as Politics too.
Stay as safe as you can, man. The light is on for you.
Sorry to read that, Thep. I’ll miss you.
If it had anything to do with me, I sincerely apologize. I thought we were all having a good conversation. 
No, it’s me, and I’m sorry you took it personally.
I stand by my statements, though.
By the way, my mother grew up in the projects, my father was expelled from high school, one of my brothers is a convicted felon, and I grew up in a crappy public school district.
None of that stopped me, because this here is America, Jack.
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“All Men are Created Equal” is a statement of initial condition, not a guarantee of equality for all people for all time.
Those who lose that distinction are doomed out of the starting gate.
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